Overthinking with the Overbys
Welcome to Overthinking with The Overbys! In this podcast series, Jo and Matt Overby cover a wide variety of topics—from parenting lessons, life stories, to personal relationships. Take an inside look on the lives of Jo and Matt as they navigate the adventures of adulthood and overthink online.
New episodes available weekly!
Overthinking with the Overbys
ADHD, PDA, and Staying Connected
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This week we go from silly daily-life updates to a real talk on how mental health gets judged online and offline, especially when postpartum depression does not “look” the way strangers expect. We share what pathological demand avoidance feels like from the inside, how ADHD medication and therapy have shifted things in our marriage, and how we try to build healthier tools for ourselves and our kids.
On this episode we talk:
• New pants joy and everyday wins
• Pop culture taste and how we consume TV now
• The pressure to share “hard things” on social media
• Why functioning online does not cancel depression
• What pathological demand avoidance means to us
• Therapy as a starting point and building a care team
• ADHD medication benefits, trade-offs, and moving goalposts
• Guilt, grief, and learning to name your strengths
• Reality TV and influencer fame crossing into mainstream
• Practical steps to find a babysitter and build trust
If you've got a thought to share or are looking for a bit of advice on something, leave us a voicemail at the link below!
https://www.speakpipe.com/overthinkingpod
If you'd like to message us you can use the email below or the text link at the top overthinking@theoverbys.com
CONNECT:
TikTok: @jojohnsonoverby / @matt.overby
Instagram: @jojohnsonoverby / @matt.overby
Website: https://jojohnsonoverby.com/
New Pants And Small Joys
SPEAKER_00I got new pants.
SPEAKER_02New pants okay.
SPEAKER_00And I'm really excited about my new pants. Yeah. Because they're long enough.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02That's rare.
SPEAKER_00And I feel like it's the first time I've owned a cargo style pant that is long enough.
SPEAKER_02That that covers your ankles?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00They always just kind of show my ankles, and you know what? Slay. I'm so excited. Good. That's all.
SPEAKER_02You can't see your ankles anymore.
SPEAKER_00Nope.
SPEAKER_02Suck on that.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_00That was crazy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Pop Diva Shirts And Music Literacy
SPEAKER_02Sorry.
SPEAKER_00I see you're wearing your pop diva shirt.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I have uh several of these, and it makes me look like a giant Britney Spears fan. And like I I enjoy her work, but I I'm not especially well versed. So you're not well versed?
SPEAKER_00No. I feel like it's hard to not be well-versed in Britney Spears.
SPEAKER_02It's kind of like Taylor Swift. We're in the right generation. Yeah. I don't think I know that.
SPEAKER_00The music just played everywhere that we were.
SPEAKER_02Totally. But I don't I don't think I know that much Taylor Swift either.
SPEAKER_00Like I that's that thing. It's like that's like people telling me they don't know that much train.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00And I'll fight them because it's the same thing with Taylor Swift and Britney Spears. I'm not saying anything shoulda, coulda, woulda, whatever. All I'm saying is I think you would know.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I I'm not saying I wouldn't know. I'm not like, who is this?
SPEAKER_00What that's not what I okay. But I think you would know most of our work. Probably I mean, like we'll have to do a test later.
SPEAKER_02Do a test? Yeah. Okay. Another morning recording, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00Sorry.
SPEAKER_02I'm nodding off.
SPEAKER_00No, I oh, was that last time?
SPEAKER_02I think that was two episodes ago.
SPEAKER_00Two episodes ago, guys. We were recording in the middle of recording. Matt looked at me and goes, Did you just fall asleep? I think something's wrong with me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Not sleeping enough?
SPEAKER_00I mean, yeah, that's definitely part of it. You can't talk to me about it because that makes me like go even more. You know, when you think about yawning and then you, you know, no?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Just me.
Energy Drinks And TV Habits
SPEAKER_00What are you drinking today? Get out of here.
SPEAKER_02This is a cotton candy Alani.
SPEAKER_00Ew. Do you like those?
SPEAKER_02Not especially. I really don't like the They come in the multi-pack, and I'm the one who drinks them. They're fine.
SPEAKER_00My friend Rags that I saw yesterday, I showed up to meet her and she had a purple cotton candy. Oh, yeah. And I was like, I'm thinking of you a bit differently now, seeing you with that.
SPEAKER_02It's because they're clearing them out at Sam's.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh. Well, no, not her. Uh, her husband was at Sam's and was like, oh, she likes this brand and bought her a whole case of them. And she was like, they're not, and I agree. She's like, they're drinkable. It's just not what I would pick. And it's like, okay, that's fair. I thought you were gonna tell me, like, yeah, this is my favorite flavor. And it was going to kind of recalibrate. But you know what? She hates chocolate. So that wouldn't be the most shocking. Yeah. Like if chocolate's in something that she'll be like, ugh.
SPEAKER_02That's like hates it. Wow.
SPEAKER_00Hates it.
SPEAKER_02What a that's a tough existence.
SPEAKER_00I know.
SPEAKER_02Like, I'm not a huge chocolate guy, but like it doesn't.
SPEAKER_00No, it like it repulses her. That's not that she'll yuck somebody else's yum while they're eating it, but if you like offer something, she'll be like, no, thanks. I'm like, no, try it. She'll be like, I'll puke.
SPEAKER_02So like a chocolate chip cookie. Absolutely not. A nightmare.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_00Not many of those exist. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like how I knew immediately that they're like clearing them out at Sam's.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Your trouble. Did you think about buying them?
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_02They were clearing them out. No. I'm like, what am I?
SPEAKER_00Just purple cotton candy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there is a case that is only purple cotton candy. Like this has two flavors that we really like. Yeah. And a third of the box is cotton candy. And I'm fine with the cotton candy. Like if I just really need some caffeine. I know there's probably one in the fridge.
SPEAKER_00I'm drinking, well, I haven't even opened it yet.
SPEAKER_02You're going to be drinking.
SPEAKER_00Bloom crisp apple. I was looking for the flavor name.
SPEAKER_02Good grief.
SPEAKER_00I uh this is my favorite by and large. I uh we did a taste test comparing it to Alani this week, which is brew and their new Ruby apple. And I still like this better.
SPEAKER_02They're just different like things.
SPEAKER_00The the Witches Brew and stuff is like a tell me more about how they're different things because I think they are all apple-flavored energy drinks. Yeah, but that was different varieties.
SPEAKER_02Like that's designed to be apple. Like just apple, not caramel apple, not sour apple. And the other ones are. They're a Halloween, they're a seasonal. That's not seasonal. That's just do you like apples? Oh, you like them apples?
SPEAKER_00What is it? Have you? What is the apples? Uh something for apples? Oh, what is it? Help!
SPEAKER_02Hungry for apples.
SPEAKER_00Hungry for apples? Is that Rick and Morty?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's Rick and Morty.
SPEAKER_00We I still I'm I'm I'm way behind. That's something I should like.
SPEAKER_02You're like two seasons of Rick and Morty. I'll watch it anytime.
SPEAKER_00How exciting is that? Like you might be three. I'm delighted.
SPEAKER_02You might have like 20 episodes of Rick and Morty that you haven't seen.
SPEAKER_00That's insane.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I do really like that show.
SPEAKER_02That that's what surprises me. At least one or two seasons ago, I was like, this is on right now if you've been watching it.
SPEAKER_00I mean, think about how little television I've watched in the last couple years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, if it doesn't have a social media component to it in terms of like timeliness.
SPEAKER_00And even then, it's even then I haven't watched very many.
SPEAKER_02I can't believe you made it through Love Island with watching most of it. Like same. Did you watch all of it, or would you say that?
SPEAKER_00I never watched the finale. That's the only one I didn't watch.
SPEAKER_02The finale's where you draw the line. Well, I do. Like I've watched a hundred hours of television, but I'm not watching the last two.
SPEAKER_00I didn't get to do it with friends.
SPEAKER_02Oh.
SPEAKER_00And so I I couldn't do it by myself. Yeah. I I don't know.
SPEAKER_02To me, that's like if you read a book and then you just cut off like the last chapter.
SPEAKER_00No. No.
SPEAKER_02I not to the same extreme because there's not a narrative that has to like totally wrap, but it's a little bit to me.
SPEAKER_00Well, like I knew it was gonna happen.
SPEAKER_02Sure. I guess it's more like if you didn't read the last chapter of a book, but could consume social media about what happens at the end of the book and follow it.
SPEAKER_00If the same thing happened every single book and it was just new characters.
SPEAKER_02Got it. Okay. That's yeah, okay. Not as bad, I guess, when you put it that way.
SPEAKER_00No, like we knew what was gonna happen.
SPEAKER_02Sure. Someone was gonna love the island.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Yeah, Matt understands the show perfectly. I don't understand. You would love Love Island.
SPEAKER_02Probably.
SPEAKER_00No, you would.
SPEAKER_02Would I?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I feel like I'd have to do it socially too, though.
SPEAKER_00No, it's so up your alley.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_00Like, yeah, you loved watching The Bachelorette.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I did.
SPEAKER_00And it's the same kind like I think that you would just think it's hysterical.
SPEAKER_02I I enjoy elements of it, but I do feel like some of it for me is having is like being able to make jokes.
SPEAKER_00But I think that you'd be able to watch it by yourself to talk about it with others. Got it. I don't think that you need the social element of sitting and watching it with other people.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like the moment people were like, no, I can't make it, I was like, I'm good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. I don't like I'll wait until somebody will watch it with me.
SPEAKER_00Or I don't even need like, yeah. I'm like, don't feel like you need to make it work. I just want to watch it.
SPEAKER_02I still can't get over you watching that one episode. Just like skipping 15 seconds at a time constantly. It was like a stop motion.
SPEAKER_00I'm not a good yeah. No, that's great.
SPEAKER_02You know, you prioritize your time your way. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I wanna I wanna like it.
SPEAKER_02That's fine. You don't have to like it.
SPEAKER_00Maybe this is my version of PDA.
SPEAKER_02Your version of PDA?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Just pathological demand avoidance, guys.
Positivity Online And Mental Health Doubt
SPEAKER_00Not pathological television avoidance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I put up a story this week of uh some okay. I'll give you all kinds of context. This weekend, somebody sent in my little chat box that they felt like everything I post is really positive and glosses over, like they were like, what are the hard things in your life? You don't share them. And personally, I found that in and of itself shocking. I was like, huh. I feel like Joe Learns to Host came out of me saying I don't know how to do anything. And I have a series of card dates with my mom because you know she's quadriplegic. And like so much of my content, like, you know.
SPEAKER_02I don't feel like you've performed around things that are difficult.
SPEAKER_00I've talked a ton about my mental health and how much of a struggle I've had with postpartum depression. And I don't know. Anyway, I just think people have an idea of what that looks like and they do not like how it looks on me.
SPEAKER_02People also struggle with the balance of you need to share things, but if you only share the things that are difficult, that's not enjoyable for people to watch. And it's also not fulfilling for you to exist in. You have to be able to maintain some semblance of your life. And when your job is sharing your life and building community, talking about all the difficult things and just dwelling there is not something people can rally around in the same way.
SPEAKER_00I like to navigate things very glass half full.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And not in a toxic positivity way. I really do believe that there is a time and place for difficult feelings and hard stuff. The last couple of years have been really, really hard for me, especially behind the scenes. I think that I have given insight into that at the level that I'm comfortable online, just because I don't think it's helpful to lay out all the nuance and get feedback from people. And I definitely am not in a place where I could be an example or give insight to other people that are in similar situations because I'm not through it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Talking about things that I have a little more hindsight 2020 on to be easier. And I don't think that others have an easy time seeing someone seem calm discussing problems that maybe they relate to, because I got a lot of good feedback, but there was one message that really stood out to me where somebody responded, and the message was like, This isn't intended to dismiss you, and you're so valid in your feelings, and then went on to say your postpartum depression experience isn't valid because you seem functional online and you're like basically gaslighting people saying you're like struggling with depression while also showing up and seeming functional. And laying out how extreme their they explained how extreme their case was, which is horrible. I I feel for them so much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That in and of itself is where mental health crisis, especially with women, probably men too, that's the center of it. Is we see people functioning in ways that we perceive they shouldn't. Like we have such an idea of how it should look.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And that anything less than that or anything in the gray area doesn't count or isn't representative. And it's like you should be able to see all aspects of it. Don't maybe show people that there's something that you don't have to get to the extreme point to seek out help, to look further into what's happening.
SPEAKER_00Well, and also what a sad way to look at it in that people who function at a higher level, I don't like, but people who function at a higher capacity, maybe. Um, I'm gonna make a dumb example. Matt's gonna roll his eyes, this is what I do, and then he's like, that was the dumbest thing. And then he'll give me a really, really like solid example usually after that.
SPEAKER_02I work well off of uh, I might not come up with the idea, but I can refine an idea. Okay. Which is kind of annoying, I think, for you, because you're like, why didn't you have that example? Why didn't you make me put together an example that doesn't work?
SPEAKER_00Well, because I think that it is from a lack of desire to do the work mentally, then it is that's why I'm annoyed.
SPEAKER_01Got it.
SPEAKER_00You going, I don't think I'm capable of coming up with ideas, but I'm really capable of correcting other people's. Like, yeah, that's so annoying.
SPEAKER_01You know, I'm not proud of it.
SPEAKER_00If I had come to you and been like, hey, can you refine this? Different story.
SPEAKER_02Sure. But anyway, you weren't looking for notes.
SPEAKER_00No. I'm thinking about if you're given a task, like, let's say the goal is to wash how many dishes you can wash in an hour, and one person washes 50, and another person washes a hundred, and that's just their rates. Like this person can do 50 an hour, that kind of person can do 100 an hour. One's not wrong, one's not right, one's not, it just is. And then the person who does 50 in an hour, all of a sudden both are really struggling and depressed at a 50% like rate that it shuts down. And so the slower person is doing 25 an hour and the other person's doing 50 an hour. And it frustrates me that that other person goes, Well, you're doing fine because that's what I could do when I does that make sense.
SPEAKER_02Like we we aren't the comparison's not important.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02They're two separate experiences.
SPEAKER_00They're two separate experiences, they're not related, and if we continue to compare ourselves to other people online, it's not useful. Yeah, it's not practical. Like it's just not meant to be scored that way.
SPEAKER_02It's not meant to be scored at all.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02If you feel like it's valid, that's your personal experience. That's your like your mental health is what you make it, more or less, or what it makes you in terms of it's not something you are fully in control of.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, I brought all this up because one of the things I listed when I when they asked, what are the hard things in my life? I
Pathological Demand Avoidance In Marriage
SPEAKER_00went through and I kind of made a list because you know, I started by saying this doesn't feel accurate, but here are these things, and I don't think you'll be surprised. And I said that something that's really hard in my day-to-day is I am trying to navigate how to be a supportive but not enabling partner to somebody with raging ADHD and PDA.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I got so many messages that they were like, raging public displays of affection.
SPEAKER_02Like I can't can't control myself.
SPEAKER_00Like people were so con and I think people just took it for that. They were like, Yeah, raging public displays of affection.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's like weird in public, I guess.
SPEAKER_00And uh then I went on, lots of people asked, and so I went on to clarify that I was talking about pathological demand avoidance or uh persistent drive for autonomy is the other those are the other the other wording that I had not heard prior to last weekend, but you had.
SPEAKER_02I had heard it, yeah. Pathological demand avoidance is still what I think is most commonly referred to.
SPEAKER_00It's what considered, it's not in the what do they call it?
SPEAKER_02DM DC Oh DSM, the DSM five, which is like the diagnostic manual for mental health issues.
SPEAKER_00It's not in there, but it's considered a subset of ASD.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00Okay. That's that's what I understood.
SPEAKER_02I I don't know the diagnosis level of it. I just know that's what I deal with.
SPEAKER_00I'm just trying to put it into the correct categories for people so that they can understand. Because when I posted about you having PDA and struggling with PDA, that's when I got the first messages ever were people being like, Matt's autistic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I got a lot of messages.
SPEAKER_02Totally.
SPEAKER_00And people asked for us to talk more on it. And I talked with Matt outside of this to make sure he was okay with talking about everything. And obviously, I think if you've listened to the podcast for any amount of time, this is a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it can't possibly be earth-shattering for anybody. If it might be surprising in terms of like the actual label of it, right. But I I maybe look just a little bit at anything that happens on a given episode.
SPEAKER_00Well, I wanted you to give some more insight into your experience with PDA specifically.
SPEAKER_02PDA specifically. To boil it really simply down, it's a hyper-vigilance against feeling like you're being manipulated or that you are having demands made of you, even by yourself. Like I struggle with am I trying to trick myself into something? What is my own motivation? Like trying to make myself a more like it's it falls almost to that level where it's like it doesn't matter where it comes from, it doesn't matter why it's happening. Why is someone or something trying to change what I'm doing? Why are they trying to have influence over this? And so that's where that persistent drive for autonomy is a good describer as well. I think they're both accurate. I think pathological demand avoidance is kind of like three loaded words strapped together. And so persistent drive for autonomy, at least persistent in drive and like those are all more neutral words to help describe somebody that is trying to not push away help, but have complete control over their decisions and their path, even at their own detriment.
SPEAKER_00Well, and from what I read, it's a coping mechanism. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like that's why it's not a it's not a diagnosis in itself. Like it's not.
SPEAKER_00You don't have you don't get diagnosed with PDA. Kind of like you don't get diagnosed with a fever. Like you have some kind of illness, and then the fever is a symptom of that illness.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's a coping mechanism uh that I guess falls under ASD.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I have found it really interesting as I've read and learned more about it, because it's like when I word a question wrong, what happens in Matt's brain and body is like the same chemical that's released, like when you're like protect yourself, is like when I ask a question wrong, Matt's like, defend.
SPEAKER_03Swat away.
SPEAKER_00But but not it's really interesting to navigate because it's not the same as somebody who is defensive of their actions necessarily.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like navigating it in a marriage has been difficult to say the least, because there are moments where I'm like, I don't understand why you're defending yourself. And if we can break through that initial response of yours, immediately you're like, okay, yeah. And we can like talk it out and you're totally fine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's kind of like two different people and not.
SPEAKER_02I get asked semi-frequently, real life, sometimes online, which again, it's not something that I'm going out and advertising, not because it's something I'm not comfortable talking about. It's more that I feel like I have one really specific experience. And I'm again, like you were talking about with mental health, I'm not through it. And so there's I always try to caution, at least myself, against trying to project this as this is how it works and this is how it's gonna go. And like I don't know all of that. And for me, a diagnosis, especially getting it in my 20s, it's not like I'm not in school, I'm not honestly my diagnosis came right at the end of when I was working a standard career.
SPEAKER_00And it's after you left.
SPEAKER_02Actually, okay, yeah. Yeah, I wasn't I guess I wasn't medicated for ADHD until after I left my job. And so which we've talked about before, I think had I been medicated six months before, a year before, a lot of things would have been really different because I would have been able to develop a structure while I still had the backbone of a nine to five, and that would have given me a lot more guidance and I think framework for doing it on my own, as opposed to dropping myself into a void.
SPEAKER_00What led you to therapy?
Therapy, ADHD Medication, And New Tools
SPEAKER_00What led the therapist to say you should talk to a psychiatrist, etc.?
SPEAKER_01Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00From your your experience.
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, so I had never been to therapy. And was it after we had G?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was after.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So we just had G We talked about it before, but after having her, you were like, okay, I Yeah, there is there is an element of if I don't address this now and I don't get guidance now, and you you pushed a lot of it. And not to say like I just, you know, ASD didn't love starting new things. Going into the unknown, and so you uh kind of held my hand getting into therapy. Like we went to couples for like two weeks, and couples was more or less like Matt needs to see this person, she's gonna see us both for a couple weeks, and what well four or five weeks, maybe altogether. Like we went together and and then it was like, okay, I'm gonna see Matt individually, which was I think your intent the entire time. Not like not it wasn't an ulterior motive. It was like we're gonna go together, and I think this person is good for Matt.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's true.
SPEAKER_02And I wasn't resistant to that either.
SPEAKER_00I didn't know that's how it was gonna go.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but I'm happy with the results. Yeah. Yeah. I again, I don't think you were playing it wasn't an ulterior motive. It wasn't a plan that you had, but you sought out somebody that was. Specialized who could work with me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you wanted to talk to that person with me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. For context, I started therapy for the first time when I was 11 or 12. I I was young. And I have been in and out of therapy since. Middle school, high school. I went for a little bit in college. And I've probably had two or three different therapists that I've seen during my adult life. I have struggled with a lot of just a lot of big life changes. And I definitely have different factors than a lot of people do in my family. And so it's something I've been really comfortable with. I have a lot of security in myself in ways that felt comfortable to seek out a therapist that was going to maybe understand you more deeply than they understood me.
SPEAKER_02Sure. I didn't think I don't think you had as many individual things that you were trying to work on. Yeah. And I had a lot that weren't being worked on at all. And so we started there, and then I started individual therapy. And I think we got four or five months in, and she's like, I'm happy to keep talking to you, but I think you're going to need to see a psychiatrist who can actually prescribe medication for ADHD because you are going to have to get help with that before we can probably make meaningful progress on because so much of what I was struggling with was executive function. And even in a therapy setting, executive function is required to work on the things that you're talking about, to stay aware to intervene with certain behaviors or thought processes. Like she's like, you're gonna realistically need to work on some of this before you're gonna meet like make meaningful progress. And so I had to wait several months to get in with a psychiatrist and get prescribed. And right off the bat, they're like, Yeah, we can we can do this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but your psychiatrist was really great in that from the beginning, the plan was yes, this is gonna be really useful. Yes, you need this to create structure. No, this is not something you have to be on the rest of your life. Yes, yes, and I thought that was really meaningful and impactful to me because I would love to see you supporting yourself through other means and building other means and utilizing meds as a tool to build that stuff. Not that it's wrong to be on them. That's not what I'm saying. I just that made me feel better because it didn't feel like a band-aid or like a oh, this will fix it. Yeah, it felt like means to a plan.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah, and he's we have a fair amount in common. And he's like, I was medicated through my 30s, like or 20s it for sure, and into his 30s, and he's like, I I'm not medicated now, but I have like I practice meditation, I have these other tools that I use that I get the same benefit out of. He's like helped me a lot in those years, and in these years, it does not help me the same way because I have more control over the executive function and the downsides of the stimulants outweigh the positives. And so he uh he's very persistent in like you need to be getting enough sleep, you need to be supporting yourself with diet and exercise and spiritual practice to whatever degree that is your thing or whatever you're comfortable with. Again, meditation like would fall under that. And so he's like all these things are effective and to some degree just as effective as medication, and then medication may help you get there with that. There's no one one size fits all, but that's always been the treatment regimen, I guess you would say. But then I started medication, made a huge difference in terms of like oh, this is possible. Like I had never had that. It was eye-opening to be like, this is what other people they just do the thing. It it took the barrier for starting something, and I still struggle with this. It's not like it has fixed it or that I'm in a you know elevated state, but it made it clear for the first time that so many little tasks that I would put off, I could just do them. It's like, oh, just make that phone call. You're gonna make that phone call, it's gonna be done. There's no guilt, you don't have to overthink aspects of it, and you can just kind of move through your day and you'll feel better. But I've I've now gone through several different medications and uh mainly stimulants is what I'm talking about. So, like Ritalin. There was a lot of complex feelings. I remember starting medication being like, wow, I would have been so much better at my job. And I was good at my job before. Like, I but I was like, uh, if I could have just done all of this stuff on a regular basis and had the ability. I had a lot of complex feelings in terms of I was really limiting myself, or that I wasn't using my potential, or I didn't have access to my potential the same way, which felt there was like a lot of guilt wrapped up in that that felt bad. Guilt felt bad, yeah, it makes sense. Being on a stimulant also regulated me more emotionally, which made a lot of things more clear. And it was like, oh, there's things that I've not been looking at in my relationships that I've got a lot of work to do on. There was a big adjustment period, and with medication, it's there's been a rise and fall in terms of like, ooh, feeling really good. And then as struggles re-emerge, like especially when you start a medication, there is a big like shift. You get this push of wow, this is different, things will be different, and then you regulate down to a more operating level.
SPEAKER_00You get used to it, you get used to it, you build a tall, like you don't build tolerance, you get used to it. It's the same way, in my opinion, about when you're on an antidepressant and you're like, no, I think I I think I'm good now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's because you get used to it, it becomes your normal, which is such a gift that that becomes your normal, and it's that constantly moving bar of expectation for yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because as an outside party watching you do all of this, it's switches and then it stays the same and you get harder on yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You remove the bar. From my perception. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like it's interesting to hear you say that you're like, it regulates, it doesn't work as well. Like that's kind of how you're talking about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that's putting a lot on the medication and how that works. When I think what happens is you all of a sudden realize how much capacity and potential there is, and then you move the bar. And you move the bar. And as you succeed, you continue to move the bar. Yeah. But you, like many, I think, lie to yourself and are like, I haven't moved the bar. What do you mean? The bar's always been there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the bar's always been there. I just used to be so far short of it, and now I'm like halfway there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I'm just, I guilt myself more because I've gotten closer, but not close enough. Yeah. Yeah. And so there is an element of that for sure. And I'm on the the medications I'm on right now, I think, are are the best uh I've been on. And individually I've had some of the hardest couple months that I've had. And the progress I have to measure is like well, you haven't driven yourself to rock bottom. So I think the medications are doing a good job. It's not like you're you're soaring, you're really achieving great work. The medication's awesome. You're like, well, good job on not making it so much worse. Like you feel shitty. Good job on not making yourself absolutely catastrophically bad. Like not making bad situations worse.
SPEAKER_00It's interesting hearing you talk about guilt and the level of guilt that becoming medicated brought out because when I look back on that time, I think of it as you navigating a lot of grief.
Guilt, Grief, And Being Exceptional
SPEAKER_02Something I struggle with a lot is feeling like I'm not using my potential. I feel like I have a lot of potential, but I think there are a lot of exceptional things that I can do.
SPEAKER_00You can say you're exceptional. Like I know that there is history to you with the need to be humble and you know, etc. And I consider you a very humble person. I think it's also okay to acknowledge that you're exceptional. I mean, you can we know you can say it. You don't have to say it. You don't have to word it in a way that you're like, I'm not. Yeah, it's a fact. It's not a yeah.
SPEAKER_02I just know how abrasive a lot of that can be.
SPEAKER_00And it doesn't it doesn't serve me and it doesn't serve other people to sit there and act like but saying you're exceptional isn't acting some kind of way, and it's not saying anything about other people. I think I'm exceptional. You are exceptional, and I don't think that that makes me better than anybody else. I think that you are also exceptional, and I can look at other people and see what's exceptional about them. Yeah. Being confident and comfortable and knowing that you are good and that you are good at things isn't belittling others. Yeah. I understand Matt and I both grew up in a talented and gifted world. Like that's we grew up in gifted and talented programs. We were around a lot of really exceptional people. And there is a through line with that that when you're around really smart people who test really well and excel in school and amaze with brain puzzles that other people aren't as quick to solve, those people often can feel elevated and better than the people around them. Yeah. And there are a lot of experiences of those people speaking down to others. Me, that was I was the one that got spoken down to. Like I was the one that coming out of within the program.
SPEAKER_02Within the program.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Like when I got out of high school, I was like, I'm stupid. And I like I was okay with that. I was like, all right.
SPEAKER_02And you were in an advanced like IB program.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No. I and I my IQ wasn't as high. My ACT score. I thought I had a bad ACT score with a 31 or 32. I don't know. I think my super score was a 32. Yeah. Like I was like, I did terrible. And because who you're around.
SPEAKER_02Because your peers were getting 35s and 36s.
SPEAKER_00And you were too, and you didn't go to the exceptional school. You went to the little small town school over there.
SPEAKER_02And and you know, like I was just surrounded with people who all were exceeding, exceeding expectation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But all of this to say, I know I'm really stealing this from you, but it really it's hard for me because I understand where you're coming from and that you don't want to be that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But those people weren't saying I'm exceptional. Those people were saying, I'm better than you. I'm better than you. Yeah. I'm more exceptional than you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And I have never in my life seen you ever. I've known you for 17, 18 years. I've never once ever seen you communicate with somebody with the desire to make them feel less than you. Ever. Not once. And when we were in high school, that was something that drew me to you so much because again, I was around a lot of really smart people. And a lot of smart people that were telling me that I was less than.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you were one of the first smart people that I interacted with that I knew you were smarter than me in a lot of ways. Like in different things. I was like, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And never once. Like when I didn't understand something, you were like, Yeah, of course you don't. And you would put it into a context that I could understand. And you were, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Even saying, of course you don't, I was like, whoa, oh no.
SPEAKER_00I I just feel so frustrated to hear you struggle to say I am exceptional.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I I have again a hypersensitivity to to make sure that even insecure people don't feel insecure. And so I shape a lot of my language in a way that is never lifting myself. If anything, it's lowering myself so that people who have insecurities don't feel put upon because it's it's served me a huge detriment in my life, to be quite honest with you, because it has destroyed my own sense of self and self-confidence. But it's made a lot of people comfortable.
SPEAKER_00So which also didn't aid you or them, honestly.
SPEAKER_02It really hasn't. But that to say starting medication was like, damn, okay, college would have been a lot different if I could have just consistently gone to class, consistently done my studies.
SPEAKER_00Yes, you did fine in school.
SPEAKER_02I did really well in school.
SPEAKER_00Well, I did really well in high school because I was able to do it without I just mean that without meds, you successfully made it through and got your chemical engineering degree in four years.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I did almost lose my scholarship. I almost lost my scholarship.
SPEAKER_00But you didn't.
SPEAKER_02Yes, and because uh I have a demand avoidance that says, well, you can't ask for help. Like you can't possibly I don't know if that's even specifically demand avoidance, but I have such a resistance to asking for help. And if I lost my scholarship, I would then have to ask my family for additional help. Like they they helped support me through school, so it's I don't want to say like I did it all by myself, but I knew that was gonna be asking for a lot more if I lost my scholarship. So I was like, well, you better figure it out, you better just bare knuckle your way through this because you can't do that and you can't depend on anybody, and so that's what got me through college, and then realizing, oh, with medication, I could have just I could have found a middle ground that was healthier. There was a lot of grief in that it was the first time that I had my eyes opened to where I had really leaned on other people to like as much as I have this resistance to asking for help, I was getting a lot of help that I wasn't acknowledging in terms of you were carrying so much of the executive function, still do carry so much of it. By not acknowledging that or not being aware of it, I wasn't showing any kind of gratitude for it either. I I basically was like, oh, well, this just kind of handles itself.
SPEAKER_00It's easy for her.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's easy for you. It doesn't, you know, you're good at it, I'm not. And then I was like, oh well, okay. You care about that, I don't. Yeah, there's a lot of things that you're using that as a a crutch and you're just kind of pushing that off. And when I started Bibance, I realized that the stimulants I was taking before had really kind of clipped my emotional range, and that I had neglected friendships and our relationship, and had just kind of accepted a limited, a very limited emotional range and output, and just was like, that's who I am now. And I had to grapple with no, you do have an emotional range that is greater than this, and you just haven't been aware of it, and you haven't shown up for the people that have shown up for you. And so there's there's a ton of guilt that comes with that. And then you have to take that and you go, This guilt can be productive, and I can work on these things, especially now that I have this medication that's making me aware of it and gives me more access to the executive function side of making things better. And you can't go down the path of shame, and this is who I am, and this is where I've failed, and that that failure is continuing and permanent, and that has been uh a journey, a journey to say the least. But I hope that this discussion has been interesting or enlightening or encouraging, because I feel like I've talked a lot about the downside of taking medication. It's been life-changing, and I'm so grateful that I've started it, that I've had therapy. If someone's thinking about therapy, I think one of the best ways to look at it is even if you don't have something acutely that you're looking to solve, because my therapy, I'm not a very focused person in terms of I want to fix this thing, I want to move. Like I have a hard time conceptualizing time and conceptualizing a goal and doing all of that. But it is I can go somewhere and talk to a person about issues I have, and they're not personally invested, and that's a good thing because they can give me a perspective that supports me without bias, one way or the other. They can give me, and I know that. Like I know this person is there well, and they're not biased by the guilt. Yeah, and they don't that's a huge thing. Yeah, you can say things to them that would be difficult for your partner or your family or your friends to hear because it's the unvarnished truth, and you can get that out and process that with somebody that it's not going to harm. And you can move on with it, and you can have a productive space for that to happen. And so I'm always advocating for therapy, always advocating for people who feel they need medication to to seek it out and get a team. I've you know, I've recommended my my people as much as possible. And I know you struggled with guilt in terms of like I've pushed you to do a lot of really hard things that have made the last several years tough, like good, productive, and hard. Like much more challenging than just moving past it. I'm just I'm really glad that I'm working on it with my kids still being small, that they can see me working on it, that I can sit down and go, Dad's trying to figure this out, you're trying to figure this out. Um we're doing it together. Hopefully you can figure it out when you're five and not when you're 25 or 35. I'm not 35 yet, but uh just to cling to my youth. But uh yeah, that this is something that I hope to give you the tools if you struggle with the same things. And there's you know some suspicions that my kids are gonna struggle with some of the same things that I've struggled with, but that they can have a healthy example uh of how to move through that.
Influencers Moving Into Reality TV
SPEAKER_00You know, total change of face chronically online this week. Earl Meets World. Have you heard about it?
SPEAKER_02No, what is that?
SPEAKER_00Alex Earl. You've heard of her.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we've talked okay.
SPEAKER_00Earl Meets World is their new reality show.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. I like the name, like uh Boy Meets World.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Earl Meets World Spin, I think is what it's I like. Um and it's her whole family, like her dad, who's married to the woman that was in that big scandal with the New York governor, like in the 2000s, and then that's her stepmom, and then she has her mom and her sibling. Anyway, they're all in it.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00And there's a lot of conversation happening around social media stars moving to like reality TV stars moving into mainstream celebrity moving into anyway. I just that's that's the big talk of the town.
SPEAKER_02Oh, okay. So what's is it airing? No, it airs uh sometime. It's just been announced. Okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the the trailer came out this week. People have known about it. It's been announced, but the trailer's out and they're promoting it. I think it probably airs sometime in September.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so soon. So what what are people saying, I guess?
SPEAKER_00People have been throwing it back to the DiMilios choosing to do a reality show and how that didn't necessarily come to fruition the way that like people didn't weren't as invested as they thought they would be. And so they're curious to see if social media stardom translates to interest in a reality TV format. I think it's gonna be successful, but we'll see.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that is interesting because they do already share.
SPEAKER_00I guess the trailer on YouTube did not get like the stuff on TikTok in the short form got tons of interaction. Yeah. But then the actual long form trailer had uh much more limited views than they thought.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00And so that's brought up a lot of interesting discussion about how we're moving forward and taking in media and how it translates from one to the other. And but I thought about it and I was thinking of Mormon wives and how as they were promoting that, because it was clear that they gave them no budget to promote Mormon wives. Like it was like they pitched the show and it felt like whoever did it put minimal effort into it. And those girls, like on their own back, like just grinded. Like they were making TikTok videos, they were trying to promote it and do everything. And everybody was like, no one's gonna watch this. And it's become this massive, successful franchise. Like they're doing another location. And so I I do think whether people want it to or not, like I don't think people necessarily like it. I think they like the show, but I don't I don't I think there's a lot of negative commentary around it. But I also think that That's reality TV. There's a lot of success. Totally.
SPEAKER_02Do you think it's easier to have a show that's centered around a group, though? Because I think there is some friction when it's like I independently, this this is my thing, and I'm gonna try and make a TV show out of it, as opposed to with Mormon wives, there is like this community, and you can well that's how Earl Meet's world is gonna be because it's gonna be their family.
SPEAKER_00It's gonna be very, I believe, keeping up with the Kardashians kind of vibe. Got it. Or like Kim Kardashian is the center of a lot of that, but then everybody got to know the other players, and at this point, the whole family has the same notoriety because of the show. And I think that's kind of the intention with Earl Meats world, is to get to know the family, get to know the other players.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I just think it's hard to do a show centered with just a couple people that you already have this vision of or already have a social media presence that they share because you're not you're like, I already either know who this person is or I have a preconceived notion of who this person is through what they and I think that's probably kind of what happened with the Demelios.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You need other characters to either gain an interest or to so people can pick sides or have these dynamics because just individual drama I don't think drives it the same way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_02You need protagonists and antagonists. And when you're both the protagonist and antagonist, you're like, well, okay, this is a story about you, but like I don't I don't know where to go or how to feel if I don't already have feelings about that person.
SPEAKER_00So that's my chronically online.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. I'm gonna have to check it out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'll have to watch it. Yeah, we can talk about it.
SPEAKER_02We always talk about talking about TV, yeah, and that's more of our special.
SPEAKER_00We more talk about like what's coming, and then we never re-rehash. So, what's our word of the
Word Of The Week Palaver
SPEAKER_00week?
SPEAKER_02Word of the week.
SPEAKER_00Word of the week.
SPEAKER_01Bow Palaver.
SPEAKER_00Palaver.
SPEAKER_01Palaver.
SPEAKER_00Palaver. Yeah. P A Laver A. V. E R.
SPEAKER_01Palaver. Palaver. Okay.
SPEAKER_00I love that it's kind of like a spelling B every time.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. You took Latin, so you've got a you've got an okay bass and spelling stuff. Well, kind of.
SPEAKER_00All right, palaver.
SPEAKER_02Palaver. A long, noisy, and unnecessary discussion or a bothersome, complicated fuss over something minor.
SPEAKER_00Oh, this podcast has been a palaver.
SPEAKER_02At times. At times, yeah. So it can be like a time-consuming task or okay.
SPEAKER_00You're back, baby. You're back. I like that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I like it a lot.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. So here's here's examples that it's giving. Getting the travel visas approved was a real palaver. Or we do not need all the extra palaver just to sign a simple form.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02So it can be both like a verb and a yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's got some teeth.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So get to the point, lose the palaver.
SPEAKER_00All right. And what have we heard from other people this week?
Finding A Babysitter Without Panicking
SPEAKER_02Let's see if somebody else has a problem that we can project ourselves onto. Love the podcast, look forward to new episodes. My husband and I both work in healthcare. Because we work opposite days, we've never had to have childcare. For context, our girls are three and two and have never been left with anyone. We just moved to a new city for great job opportunities and are not around family. We've never been around either of our families, so we've always just figured it out. I'm at a season in life where I think I may be ready to have someone watch the girls for date night here and there, but I'm not sure how to go about it. I know I can probably find someone, but it's the trusting part that scares me. People are crazy and I'm super protective. I guess I'm looking for advice on how to go about the idea of a babysitter for date nights and to ease my anxiety. Thank you both.
SPEAKER_00Not having any time away from your kids for three years at all actually to me sounds unhealthy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's hard.
SPEAKER_00I maybe that's a really hot take. And I understand not everybody has access to the money to like pay a babysitter or the family aspect. So I'm not trying to say anything in that regard. This one's never really made sense to me. It's not something I've struggled with in the same way. Um, and so for that reason, I don't know that I will have necessarily the best advice because I don't know that I can come from the standpoint of the anxiety. And that's so real and so valid. And I have friends that have also experienced this, so I don't want to sound like it's not common because I think that it is. Uh we did care.com for our first uh babysitter, and I'm kind of I I'm crazy in my own way, like I don't really like to do one-off babysitters or things like that. Like we have had the same babysitter for the last three years. Yeah. And she has been with us, like she only works for us. I mean, every now and again she'll take a night with somebody or whatever. But I, you know, my kids know her. So I I too am my own flavor of crazy. But I do understand the not having family to be involved, and I think it's just kind of taking a leap. I think a really good first maybe step is to do like a parents helper situation. So bringing in a babysitter, I don't know what your home situation is like, but bringing in a sitter for an hour and going to the office of your home or going to your bedroom and folding laundry away. And so leaving, quote unquote, so to your kids, you're exiting, but then you're still in the home. And the babysitter knows this, you know. Uh, and just doing it for an hour, two hours to try and get your feet under you with the comfort level, especially with the person. And I think a few times like that, and that could also give you extra time to get chores done to get XYZ done.
SPEAKER_02And then it's gonna be more of like an interview process, basically.
SPEAKER_00You feel more comfortable from there. But I get it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So, like the like you said, care.com is where they do background checks and everything with care.com.
SPEAKER_00That's why we started there. We did not find our current sitter on care.com.
SPEAKER_02No, that that's through uh family and community. But like if you've moved to a new place and you don't necessarily have that.
SPEAKER_00I think care.com's a phenomenal option. And they have references. That's what I really liked about there. I was able to interview people and I was able to talk with people that they had worked for and how they felt about it. I was able to look at their prior employment, everything.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and that was really useful. And we had a lot of success uh with who we ended up hiring from care.com.
SPEAKER_02Outside of that, we've had again, like I said, people in our personal networks that we've we've been able to reference personally, but um obviously if that's not available to you in the same way, there are sources like that that do some uh level of pre-vetting. And then you're getting somebody that you know you at least have a tie to who they are. There is some tracking of this person is responsible. Not like not saying they are responsible, but you it's like having an Uber driver, you know who they are, Uber knows who they are. Like there is some traceability in terms of this person was involved in your life or with your kids at this time.
SPEAKER_00Also, something that was really important to me from the time that we became parents is I wanted my kids to have other caretakers in their life, even if it was just a date night here or uh going to get ice cream there, like small things because there was a lot of anxiety instilled in me that I needed to fear others because like everything was out to get me. And as I've encountered the world, I didn't think that that was a healthy or adequate lesson in order to protect myself because it didn't give me tools and it didn't allow me to have experience and guidance from the grown-ups in my life. I was protected in a box and sheltered, and I understand the heart behind that and the the goal behind that. The issue being in adult life, when I got thrown out into the world to go thrive, I was very easy to take advantage of because I hadn't built any of the tools that I needed. And I feared everybody. And since I feared everybody, it was really hard for me. Like I had never learned how to you couldn't discern who was a real threat and who wasn't. Yeah. And so because I thought everyone was a threat.
SPEAKER_02So then you had to trust you trust everybody, or you don't trust everybody, and you don't, and it also doesn't give you the tools to handle if something happens.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02And so I think you're a lot better off developing that secure attachment with your kids and also opening that path of communication and making sure that they have and to be clear, two and three is really little.
SPEAKER_00Like you're just really small. That's hitting the point that I started to feel comfortable because I could talk to my kids about body safety. I could talk to my kids about, you know, the interactions that they have, they could talk with me, you know, like things proceeded from there, but it has been a huge core of my parenting to not instill my anxieties into my kids. And I'm sure I still am to some extent.
SPEAKER_02And they pick up on everything.
SPEAKER_00That's part of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think that a lot of parents do things in the name of being protective, and I think sometimes the protection can end up being harmful, even though the intent's really great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I implore you to maybe think on that some and think about the benefits of your kids getting to experience different people.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. If you can give them tools to navigate the world, they can help defend themselves, or they can reach out when they need help to have you help defend them. If you're the only source of defense they've ever had, they will They're very vulnerable. Yeah, they will eventually be away from you.
SPEAKER_00And also, this may not be your issue at all. I'm projecting.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And two small. Like your two and three shouldn't be out and wandering the world. No, yeah. That's no. That's crazy. But you know, they're gonna go to school at some point, they're gonna have, you know, if they're in childcare, like all that's gonna happen. And so making sure that I think it's part of a secure attachment too, is just making sure that they feel supported and also empowered. And in terms of logistically, yes, there are resources out there and um where you can find pre-vetted people and that you can have some level of visibility with.
SPEAKER_00So I agree.
SPEAKER_02Hopefully that was helpful and not just a jumbled mess of our own problems, insecurities. But that seems like maybe this episode is a little focused on that. So uh hopefully this has been entertaining.
Closing Thoughts And Quick Goodbye
SPEAKER_02Like, subscribe, review if it's good, uh the podcast, and we'll do this again next week.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_02All right.
SPEAKER_00Bye.